discussion from. you know, those of us who have worked on this for a long time, the simpson/bowles plan, which has gained a lot of attention, even our gang of six efforts, which we think improved upon the plan. we started with the rates going back up, you use that baseline and then you work down. you can then use some of these tax reform ideas to bring the rates back down, but you basically, we need, you know, on a ten year basis, more than $1 trillion of net new revenue as we think about some of the additional cuts we're going to have to make and some of the reforms to the entitlement programs. i agree with the president, let's go ahead and bring the rates back up, but then like simpson/bowles, we can use a tax reform effort, whether it is capping tax expenditures or actually going through in a more thorough way which might be flattening the actual tax code and eliminating some of the expenditures that may no longer be necessary. >> as you say semantics, this is a semantics conversation, right? because simpson/bowles says i'm going to cut the overall rate. so rates actually went down.